Bracelets, Backgammon, and the Bets of Gershon Distenfeld

00:00:00: Welcome to Office Hours, I'm Kuldeep Madan and this is where i sit down with the smartest most interesting people.

00:00:05: I know today's guest Is Gershan Distenfeld?

00:00:09: Gershahn spent nearly three decades at Alliance Bernstein rising from business analyst a co-head of fixed income.

00:00:14: He's familiar face on Bloomberg TV and CNBC World Series of poker bracelet winner And someone who brings the same conviction to the boardroom as the poker table.

00:00:23: an everything in between Gershon.

00:00:27: welcome to office hours.

00:00:28: All opinions expressed by the program participants are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinions of their respective parent companies, affiliates or the companies with which they're affiliated.

00:00:38: Investments or strategies mentioned in this may be suitable for you but should make your independent decisions regarding them.

00:00:43: This material does NOT take into account your particular investment objectives financial situations or needs.

00:00:48: it is not intended as recommendations appropriate to you.

00:00:50: You should strongly consider seeking advice from your own investment advisor.

00:01:08: Happy to have you here.

00:01:09: I know we've got your daughter out in the peanut gallery, and hope she does a pine for us today.

00:01:15: Up to her.

00:01:17: That's just gonna say something smart All right.

00:01:20: So i want to kick this off Just kind of talking through A little bit about How were... Your name was dropped In that first episode And uh You immediately messaged me Asking about it.

00:01:29: Was that ME he was talking About?

00:01:31: So a Little bit about how We met.

00:01:32: Um..you Know ..how you met Vince And i just wanna hear that story from YOU.

00:01:35: Well What do you remember at least?

00:01:38: I met Vince I don't know, nearly a decade ago after I've been working with an insurance agent who was new to the business.

00:01:47: He's a friend of the family and he really couldn't explain what I need to know about insurance.

00:01:53: I'm not your typical client so you have to go into the weeds or understand every little

00:01:57: thing.".

00:01:59: Someone

00:01:59: would describe you as difficult?

00:02:01: That is what Vince described me as!

00:02:11: I'm in the industry.

00:02:12: I need to understand, I have insurance companies as clients.

00:02:16: I work with insurance company so i really needs to understand what product is that im going to be buying.

00:02:22: So anyway he gave up and pushed me over to Vince And Vince will tell you it took two years of him educating before finally pulled a trigger.

00:02:33: But then Vince and I established a good relationship You know, a love-hate relationship.

00:02:38: We'd love to hate each

00:02:38: other.".

00:02:40: No but I respect him and think he respects me most of the time.

00:02:44: But then you know...I don't know about a year ago.

00:02:47: He says,"You gotta meet this guy called

00:02:49: Deep!".

00:02:50: And i'm like who's called deep?

00:02:53: And his'e like..."He is a guy that can explain things even better than I

00:02:57: Can.".

00:02:58: Is That

00:02:58: what he actually said?

00:03:00: I don't wanna be those with exact words but something to them My

00:03:02: head gonna get bigger.

00:03:04: How did that

00:03:06: go?

00:03:06: How'd it go when I first met you?

00:03:07: Oh, we had a very lovely First Zoom.

00:03:11: I couldn't quite figure you out or what your game was.

00:03:14: You know i'm always thinking What's this guy trying to sell me?

00:03:17: um but the reality is We had a good conversation and agreed on some follow-ups.

00:03:22: Then another conversation And one more thing that I did warn you That I didn't do business with Vince for two years.

00:03:29: uh Two years after I met him Like that's okay!

00:03:33: Don't do businesses with me.

00:03:35: We hit it off, we liked each other.

00:03:37: But I ended up doing business with you after arguing with you tremendously and driving your team crazy.

00:03:42: Shashana does the team like me?

00:03:43: They're very remembering what he put them through.

00:03:47: Ha ha!

00:03:48: they remember when you put them though

00:03:51: but its educational.

00:03:54: i don't be difficult for this sake of being difficult.

00:03:58: no that's not fair.

00:03:59: sometimes you do because you think is fun.

00:04:02: Sometimes You Do For Fun.

00:04:04: It is the absolute reason you do it, there's no other reason.

00:04:07: And its just fun and I'm okay with that!

00:04:10: But

00:04:11: most of the time anything you ask for was reasonable...I've never thought about it as unreasonable.

00:04:16: If i did tell if they could like cross in line being an ass I don't think we ever had any issue.

00:04:22: I don't think anything you ask for is unreasonable because, You're trying to understand and if you come from a place of understanding it's fine.

00:04:27: I have told Vince that he has crossed the line... ...I said Vince..you can talk with other clients in this way!

00:04:31: Me?

00:04:31: You could talk through that!

00:04:32: But he

00:04:32: doesn't!...You

00:04:33: are his pickleball buddy!

00:04:34: I've

00:04:34: seen him with alot'nother client.... You guys get off into

00:04:38: some

00:04:39: deep-off left territory where i dont know how that happens.

00:04:42: Is that like Pickleball smacktalk thats carrying over from your guy?

00:04:45: Nahh just thinks its their relation.

00:04:46: He does not use someone who really pushes back hard against them.

00:04:50: He likes it deep down.

00:04:51: I know he

00:04:51: does.

00:04:52: no, he actually does.

00:04:53: he speaks very highly of you.

00:04:54: That's good.

00:04:55: II speak very highly at him and most the time about you

00:04:58: Most to the time.

00:04:58: i'll take that.

00:04:59: most of

00:04:59: the time.

00:05:00: yeah

00:05:00: i'll Take that?

00:05:01: I mean Cs get degrees all take a seventy percent plus national others one.

00:05:05: All right.

00:05:07: so why did You say yes Why Did You end up Becoming A client?

00:05:11: I think It all Comes Down To Trust.

00:05:12: At The End Of The Day I Actually Thought You Knew What You Were Talking About.

00:05:15: The Reality Is in This Industry.

00:05:17: I've Spoken to a lot of You know, I didn't buy my first insurance policy.

00:05:22: And probably had ten people maybe more pitch me on stuff.

00:05:25: they just didn't even know what they were selling.

00:05:27: I can't buy something if someone doesn't know with their cell and you really knew your stuff?

00:05:31: I did agree with you on everything.

00:05:32: we had some big disagreements as it related to whether premium financing made sense for from my policies but that's OK.

00:05:41: But i understood.

00:05:44: I knew you, knew what you were talking about.

00:05:45: You are very strong on the estate planning as well which is important to me.

00:05:49: and at end of day something bad yeah just trusted it didn't happen in first meeting or two but over time this business built trust.

00:05:59: i know my businesses manage a lot money for clients around world.

00:06:03: institutional clients retail client yes have perform its a lot about trust.

00:06:10: feeling comfortable feel like screw me You didn't take any money from me for a long time.

00:06:16: And when you did, if I wasn't happy, you'd refund

00:06:18: it.".

00:06:18: So those are big things!

00:06:32: A

00:06:43: suburb of.

00:06:44: I was born in Queens.

00:06:45: Yes, I know i needed to get that out because I'm a queen's kid So I need to make sure I heard it.

00:06:49: but I moved when I was nine.

00:06:50: Nobody needs to know that part

00:06:51: But I told them anyway?

00:06:53: I grew up in northern New Jersey suburb called teen act new jersey.

00:06:56: It's basically six or seven minutes from the George Washington bridge so very very close.

00:07:01: and I grew Up In a Very religious household modern orthodox Judaism Where we live a certain way.

00:07:11: what is Modern Orthodox Judaism?

00:07:13: That's that the whole.

00:07:16: okay, so orthodox Judaism is a stricter form of Judaism that believes that you know.

00:07:22: when God gave the Torah to The Bible to the Jewish people some three thousand plus years ago He put it in very explicit set of commands.

00:07:33: They are very just as applicable today As they were then.

00:07:35: So we and we have a whole rituals and life cycle events and holidays.

00:07:43: That's opposed to what's known as reform or conservative Judaism, which takes the law apart a lot less seriously and believes that it's evolved.

00:07:52: Orthodox Jews are probably about ten-or fifteen percent of Jews in America.

00:07:57: I use word modern because there is different... Modern means a little bit more open to the world.

00:08:01: It was very much In The

00:08:03: World Okay?

00:08:06: I don't know if i can spend A LOT MORE time on that.

00:08:08: What

00:08:09: does IN THE WORLD mean to you?

00:08:12: interacting with other societies and other people as opposed to being more closed off, trying not that anyone could really truly close themselves all from the world.

00:08:21: I don't mean like The Amish or something.

00:08:25: Just...

00:08:25: I've never heard of Jewish people equated with the Amish before.

00:08:27: but- Well there's

00:08:28: some they want to be secluded.

00:08:29: That wants.

00:08:30: its little exposure To outside worlds is possible And want it keep very insular.

00:08:34: But that was my upbringing And i'm interact with all sorts Of people.

00:08:40: Very happy too All

00:08:41: right, so we've got Little Gersh nine years old in Teen Eppie Jersey.

00:08:45: You know hanging out modern society, modern Jew.

00:08:49: what are you doing?

00:08:50: What's life like for your parents do?

00:08:53: What values did you grow up with?

00:08:56: Values of giving back to community which is very important Of kindness of giving Back To The World.

00:09:04: those were Like the values that shape my home.

00:09:07: little gersh played a lot of sports okay filed A Lotta Sports was very into numbers and mathematics.

00:09:16: Always thought I was going to do something in the mathematical field, like everyone told me that people tell you actually two things.

00:09:21: one is they have a lawyer because they watch too much TV and think lawyers are getting up there arguing or ninety nine percent of it.

00:09:30: yeah i'm pretty good at but ninety-nine percent boring stuff.

00:09:33: never want touch other than people should be an actuary And took first actual exams past them, flying colors.

00:09:42: Of course you did!

00:09:43: But then I went to an interview my senior year in college and the guy interviewing me...I don't remember it was one of big life insurance companies but literally his tie is up here.

00:09:57: he had a stain on his shirt.

00:09:59: he has a pocket protector who's the stereotype nerd.

00:10:03: He's the guys from The Basement.

00:10:04: for a reason

00:10:05: And i was like..i can do this.

00:10:07: I took a job and just a regular job in finance instead.

00:10:12: Tell me about that job?

00:10:13: Well, it wasn't the greatest of all jobs.

00:10:15: It was at a prestigious firm Lehman Brothers.

00:10:17: Ninety-seven ninety eight!

00:10:18: And i liked to joke That I saw The writing on the wall.

00:10:21: So I got the hell out Of there ten years beforehand.

00:10:23: But...I only lasted There nine months..I Was In an operations program.

00:10:27: I didn't go To A top tier type school Why I Didn't focus as much On getting a Job As I should have.

00:10:31: I Wasn't partying or anything.

00:10:33: I was Just You know Living life Playing sports Whatever.

00:10:37: And so I just, took a job that I got through my university.

00:10:44: It was incredibly boring and ended up leaving nine months later and went to Sanford Bernstein.

00:10:49: Um...I knew someone who knew somebody had me in an interview.

00:10:52: Okay?

00:10:53: Um..I was twenty-two years old.

00:10:56: Uh....I was interviewing to be project manager at Fixed Income.

00:11:01: What does it even mean?

00:11:02: what is

00:11:02: it?

00:11:03: I wasn't sure!

00:11:06: really kind of managing a lot of the technology folks and working on Y-to-K if people remember that.

00:11:12: Remember Y-To-K?

00:11:13: Really boring

00:11:13: stuff, but one of the funny things in interview was interviewing with the head of fixed income And he goes to me.

00:11:20: So you know we all like you a lot.

00:11:23: But here's the bottom line.

00:11:24: You know I could hire you.

00:11:26: you have no experience doing any of this or i can hire A guy That's been doing This exact job for fifteen years and He's really good.

00:11:32: Like why should I hire you?

00:11:35: And without batting an eyelash, I said because it cost a lot less.

00:11:41: So he liked that answer but ended up hiring me and in very nice way.

00:11:47: In addition to giving me much larger bonus than was promised set- I started May so that would have been December of ninety eight.

00:11:56: He knocked on my office door is really cool got into the office right away.

00:12:00: really important.

00:12:00: It's a little weird for a twenty-two year old?

00:12:02: Really, we were twenty two years old.

00:12:03: I spent most of the rest my career on trading desk which i liked alot better anyway.

00:12:06: but anyways he knocked out my door and he said remember that conversation you had when was interviewing with someone else.

00:12:13: He goes We made the right choice And then walked away.

00:12:18: That

00:12:18: felt pretty good.

00:12:20: So after doing it for like a year or half I wanted to branch do something really on the investing side.

00:12:29: And I had in that role, I had really helped a lot of portfolio managers.

00:12:33: so people were eager to help me find a spot and at the time this is... So i was at Sanford Bernstein.

00:12:40: today the firm is known as Alliance Bernstein.

00:12:42: Alliance Capital bought Sanford-Bernstein In The Summer Of Two Thousand.

00:12:47: So kind right before that end of ninety nine game two thousand.

00:12:50: sanford bernstein has just won their first high yield corporate bond mandate.

00:12:55: I don't even know what high yield was, but we didn't really have anyone to like manage it.

00:12:59: They put a PM on it.

00:13:00: He needed some help so i was gonna just try and figure it out.

00:13:04: Next thing you know well.

00:13:06: first the pm.

00:13:06: they put on It when our medical leave about six weeks later.

00:13:09: So it's just left?

00:13:10: I was left to myself managing a four hundred million dollar portfolio And I had no idea what I was doing.

00:13:14: how old are you?

00:13:15: I'm twenty three Something like that.

00:13:21: yeah, it was great.

00:13:22: But then Alliance bought Bernstein.

00:13:24: alliance had one of the largest high-yield teams at a time.

00:13:27: So they kind of just took me in and I started by.

00:13:31: Uh, i traded High Yield for that book For a couple of years

00:13:35: okay?

00:13:35: um

00:13:37: And threw a series Of...I don't know circumstances.

00:13:42: Um Circumstance circumstances.

00:13:43: i became portfolio manager Which is very very strange and That usually your research analyst before you're not Usually almost everyone as a research analyst Before their portfolio manager.

00:13:53: But we took a very different approach.

00:13:54: I took much more quantitative approach, that was my background.

00:13:57: and then when the head of high yield left in early oh six The CIO fixed incomes like you know We got this thirty year old kid.

00:14:03: he seems to be Doing something different than everyone else will give him a shot.

00:14:08: so they let me take over the business And You Know i was responsible for kind of revising the investment process bring A lot More quantitative tools into it which is not Something That Was

00:14:20: Wasn't

00:14:22: commonplace especially in high yield.

00:14:23: Okay, still isn't as common place today And I you know had a knack for being able to on the commercial side Being able too.

00:14:32: You know why did i say that?

00:14:36: I ended up doing business with you.

00:14:36: I trusted you II had A pretty good ability To get in front of clients and make them feel comfortable.

00:14:45: Why is that?

00:14:45: what do think that it?

00:14:46: I Think a little bit honesty Self-deprecating.

00:14:51: oh, it's not the self deprecating.

00:14:53: It's the honesty?

00:14:53: no No But it's a little bit self depocating.

00:14:55: all I mean depends how you define it?

00:14:57: It's a Little Bit of The.

00:14:58: I'd say we're self aware.

00:14:59: i'm honest right i'm Honest.

00:15:01: yeah, I don't think We're very good at that.

00:15:03: Think You're

00:15:03: self Aware and okay.

00:15:04: so man i'll amend to self-aware.

00:15:07: Okay Honest when I Don't know something don't just give the same answers.

00:15:12: Everyone Gives don't force Something.

00:15:15: And I, you know, it became pretty good in front of clients and eventually on the media as well.

00:15:19: We'll have a very good story to tell ya about that when your ready for it?

00:15:22: I'm

00:15:23: ready!

00:15:23: You're

00:15:23: ready?!

00:15:23: Right now!

00:15:24: Your

00:15:24: always ready!

00:15:25: Always ready.

00:15:25: So we had a CEO change in two thousand nine under our previous CEO.

00:15:31: For whatever reason his strategy was never talk to the media.

00:15:34: He didn't want us quoted in The Wall Street Journal.

00:15:36: he did not want us on TV nothing.

00:15:39: Then they changed like abruptly with their new CEO who wanted out there.

00:15:43: Now, most people are kind of scared to do this stuff.

00:15:47: So anyway I got my first opportunity in two thousand and eleven.

00:15:50: Some CNBC story?

00:15:51: This

00:15:52: is a CNBC...I told you the

00:15:53: story before!

00:15:54: No no i'm just starting to connect dots..i've watched alot your content on that one.

00:15:57: Well

00:15:57: this one is for sure it's not online even though its very embarrassing to me.

00:15:59: It would be great if was online.

00:16:00: Boy

00:16:00: wish it was.

00:16:02: I want the Gersh Embarrassing one.

00:16:03: Its'a

00:16:04: teaching moment.

00:16:04: Okay.

00:16:05: so I was on CNBC A long time high yield strategist named Brad Rogoff who Barclays he would be on TV all the time and He basically asked if you can get me on.

00:16:19: Yes, the host or whatever.

00:16:20: I have this up-and-coming guy.

00:16:21: Let's have him on also fine.

00:16:23: So that wasn't in the studio.

00:16:26: They put me In a room with one of those with a thing in your ear And a bright light in your face.

00:16:33: Yeah, and the screen below That you're not supposed to look at it was looking ahead.

00:16:37: Not at the screen

00:16:38: right?

00:16:39: You know Brad is in the studio with The Host.

00:16:43: So anyway, so that interview starts and he asked Brad the first question And whatever.

00:16:54: I don't remember what the question was to this day But Whatever Brad said Was What I Was Gonna Say To Answer The Question?

00:16:59: And I completely froze to the fact where the host goes, are you there Gershon?

00:17:16: If you go if you go to our trading desk at Alliance Bernstein today.

00:17:19: Anyone who was their they're just go up there and go.

00:17:21: Are You There Gershon?

00:17:22: everyone will start bursting out laughing because Everyone knows that i recovered

00:17:27: In that episode, in that recording or?

00:17:30: Yeah I recovered but it was kind of embarrassing.

00:17:32: I came back to train this with like no one would look at me because everyone-

00:17:36: It's on TV.

00:17:36: Everyone is watching

00:17:37: it.

00:17:38: We didn't really have people on all that much.

00:17:39: so everybody knew about it and it was on TV.

00:17:41: Big deal!

00:17:42: I will tell you literally um...I did not come to work the next day.. ...I was physically ill.

00:17:50: I could count a number sick days i've taken on one hand in my career ..I was literally physically ill And I laugh at it now because there's a kind of thing like, I don't get embarrassed at all.

00:18:03: Now just...I just don't care as much anymore necessarily what people think.

00:18:07: so.

00:18:08: but back then It was like oh my god!

00:18:10: I can't believe it.

00:18:11: I volunteer to do this and screwed up.

00:18:14: So i use the teaching lesson that why actually wish The video still around?

00:18:18: I'd like to show you guys cause I tell some younger people I think ninety-nine out hundred would have been like I'm never doing again.

00:18:25: It's hard and instead I took it as a challenge like, i'm gonna freaking do this.

00:18:30: I'm never going to screw up.

00:18:31: I don't look really good at it.

00:18:32: Yeah

00:18:33: And well have never frozen since I've got a lot of media training sense.

00:18:37: How did you get okay?

00:18:38: So talk about that.

00:18:39: how Did You Get Good At being on TV?

00:18:41: Well

00:18:42: II think A Lot Of It.

00:18:43: I mean There'S A Nature In Nurture Part.

00:18:44: I Do Think.

00:18:45: Despite My Freeze in the first Time I do Have The Ability To converse with people to be witty.

00:18:51: One of the reasons they like me, especially on Bloomberg sometimes.

00:18:54: no I am kind of funny.

00:18:57: how many times have you?

00:18:58: Uh i think...I've definitely shown you that clip where the host goes why must you misbehave on every show and which I said just stop inviting me.

00:19:06: he goes nah we'll keep on inviting.

00:19:07: oh it's

00:19:07: great.

00:19:08: uh That's Like The Best Part.

00:19:09: We know we're gonna get a good laugh out of anything you do.

00:19:11: Yes, I try and bring it to humor because they have enough people that tell them where's the tenure going?

00:19:18: What is the S&P gonna be doing?

00:19:19: Everyone has an opinion nobody actually knows.

00:19:23: so... Well well

00:19:26: thats what got me that comment.

00:19:28: It was rapid fire question round with two other women.

00:19:32: And ummm The question i think was in eighteen or nineteen like, twenty-five fifty or nothing at all.

00:19:41: And I said thirty seven and a half.

00:19:44: The point behind it was... It's a stupid question.

00:19:47: So i don't know this tangent here.

00:19:49: where are we going with?

00:19:50: This doesn't

00:19:50: matter.

00:19:50: keeps out of good story.

00:19:52: Which story am I telling now?

00:19:53: uh thirty seven in a half.

00:19:54: you were on With the two women but

00:19:56: I told that story already.

00:19:57: no We're telling about how I got how I get good at it.

00:19:59: No Yeah!

00:19:59: I did get some formal media trading.

00:20:01: ab had an in house consultant That work with me Was very Good But At the end Of day I learned It's all about pivoting.

00:20:08: At the end of day, you can... Whatever you get asked there are just ways to turn it.

00:20:14: I go into most interviews not this one actually i wasn't sure what was gonna say in this one.

00:20:18: but when going through those interviews on TV with these other things that want to stay yeah sometimes they've been going with a joke and try getting somehow.

00:20:29: well my more recent ones had an equity person always listen than a half hour, an hour leading up to it.

00:20:36: Just see what they're talking about.

00:20:38: and then equity guy on was making fun of fixing people.

00:20:41: or you'll fix things when people think They know everything.

00:20:44: so I get on the show like a half-hour later And they asked me whatever first question is and i'm Like yeah before I answer that uh...I heard your guess That Whatever The Name Was Half Hour ago Saying That She Thinks That Fixing People Think That They Know More Than Everyone Else.

00:21:00: I Said John?

00:21:00: I want To Correct Her.

00:21:02: We Don't.

00:21:04: We

00:21:04: know it to be true.

00:21:06: So he laughed, we moved on.

00:21:08: I came on during COVID because we broadcast from home back then with a mask.

00:21:13: You've seen

00:21:13: some of those clips?

00:21:14: To me as something... It's entertainment like its different.

00:21:19: Everyone sounds the same everyone has got different opinions but everyone is in that kind framework.

00:21:23: you gotta try and get out-of-the box and be memorable.

00:21:26: It does sound like The only way better is a lot more

00:21:30: reps.

00:21:31: But i think also being When I meet with a client, I don't need the client to agree with everything I say or think that I'm the smartest person in the world.

00:21:43: The clients gotta walk away with... That's a thoughtful person.

00:21:46: I trust them with my money and you know, it's not an easy thing to do.

00:21:51: And by being honest is most people have good BS kind of antennas right?

00:21:57: A lot of when they ask kinda gotcha questions just kind of saying something to say something.

00:22:07: I don't do that, no i'm very open...I'll be like you know but..i think i have a good ability- i've got a lot of faults.

00:22:15: by the way if u wanna start ill start messing my fault.

00:22:16: oh well get that list.

00:22:17: yeah when i think im very good at

00:22:19: call it even for that one

00:22:22: ya know some of them also No!

00:22:25: But i think Im Very Good At.

00:22:26: Actually When i Get Asked A Question That i dont really agree with the premise or question I can make that point without making the person who asked a question feel stupid.

00:22:35: And, and th-that's actually a...I think it is skill?

00:22:39: Yes!

00:22:39: It's

00:22:40: massive.

00:22:40: Because most people just avoid it.

00:22:43: they won't..they wont' make known to disagree with the questioner.

00:22:47: I'm not afraid of knowing but i'll give a lot of nuance and will make them feel like this....this is tough thing and thought through alot.

00:22:56: so thats appreciated.

00:22:57: Give

00:22:57: me an example

00:22:59: An example.

00:23:00: well

00:23:02: Explaining something to a client or you don't want it over their head.

00:23:05: You're simplifying It so they understand it without making them feel stupid.

00:23:09: Well, yeah aren't in very technical business

00:23:11: I think the theme of a specific example.

00:23:14: But the theme is like clients often will wanna talk about very short-term events that don't matter In this grand scheme of things.

00:23:20: investing as a long term probabilistic game Yes and short term thinking is actually the enemy of that.

00:23:25: but those still ask it anyway.

00:23:27: They also another common thing not understanding the difference between decisions and outcomes.

00:23:34: So for a long time, we owned some Lehman Brothers debt in our portfolios back during the financial crisis.

00:23:41: And for months or years I had to answer what mistake did you make?

00:23:47: Why'd you make that mistake?

00:23:48: And I didn't think it was a mistake.

00:23:50: It was a bad outcome.

00:23:51: all right if by the way You thought they should own any financial companies would have missed.

00:23:55: That's one of the things that I preach a lot to my own team is we have to separate out our decisions from outcomes.

00:24:06: You know, an example like give us clients all time and say look if i offered you... I'm a little bit of gambling man as probably no- We'll get there!

00:24:13: ...we will get there....I offer you a fifty-fifty proposition..i have bag And theres two red balls & One blue ball in the back and pick it at random.

00:24:23: You can bet a dollar on it.

00:24:25: If your rational You're going to pick the red because it's a two and three chance.

00:24:28: Yeah, if you stick your hand into the bag and you pull out of blue ball Did you make a bad decision?

00:24:35: No Of course not.

00:24:36: If I did that an infinite amount of times i would win two thirds at a time.

00:24:39: yeah But we do that in investing within life all the time.

00:24:44: The reality is In any small sample size you can Make a really good decision And have a bad outcome or you could make A really bad Decision.

00:24:51: then just get lucky.

00:24:53: okay but the law of large numbers says That if If you look at all the decisions.

00:24:59: You're making in life or a portfolio, if you make more good decisions than bad decisions, you will end up having more good outcomes and bad outcomes.

00:25:07: so it's very important.

00:25:08: my team actually knows I get More anxious when we're doing really well in portfolios.

00:25:13: then what were doing poorly?

00:25:14: We didn't pull everyone's focused on him.

00:25:16: We're doing well unlike Well Do we?

00:25:19: do we really understand the risk we put them these portfolios?

00:25:23: maybe we just getting lucky?

00:25:24: Maybe we actually think that we're not putting as much risk as we are.

00:25:29: And there's other things in the portfolio that're gonna come back to bite us, so I think separating those... So clients often will ask questions along these lines and part of me wants it be like you know what I'm saying?

00:25:43: That just is presiding one outcome of all this zillion decisions i make.

00:25:47: but instead I walk through kind of that philosophy-I explain the analogy with The Balls!

00:25:53: I explained

00:25:56: It makes perfect sense to me.

00:25:58: I am curious about your decision-making process, professionally and personally?

00:26:03: Sounds like you probably have a framework of some kind.

00:26:06: I flip coins a lot!

00:26:08: Okay is that it?

00:26:08: That's

00:26:09: it?

00:26:09: no look...it drives my wife of Eva crazy but i think everything in terms of probability everything okay like whether i should cross the street or not There's a chance you get hit by the car if you cross the street.

00:26:24: Absolutely,

00:26:24: see?

00:26:25: You gotta think about that.

00:26:27: For me decisions come down to have you adequately weighed The possibilities and you never gonna get it exactly right.

00:26:33: Have you thought of the main potential scenarios?

00:26:37: so

00:26:37: its definitely not fifty-fifty.

00:26:38: your not flipping coins?

00:26:39: Definitely not fifty fifty.

00:26:41: Look Flipping Coins could be appropriate when you have really done the analysis And you've weighed everything out and we really could go either way.

00:26:51: yeah And by the way, in markets that's often the case.

00:26:55: I don't believe markets are perfectly efficient but they're not radically inefficient either.

00:26:59: so a lot of time it does come down to close call and there other factors go into them.

00:27:07: Tell me about some mistakes rather than bad outcomes.

00:27:11: Oh mistakes?

00:27:13: Make mistakes all the time We'll do.

00:27:15: nobody is perfect.

00:27:15: Oh, you

00:27:17: know.

00:27:18: A mistake that I've made?

00:27:20: You know very well!

00:27:21: I have been kind of bearish on public equities for the past two years...I just think from a value again and i did always caveat it with- I can't tell what they're going to do over next year or two.

00:27:33: They could be doing really good but I just think valuations here are gonna tough inflation plus six fifty, six seventy-five from equities over the past hundred years.

00:27:44: You're just going to get a much lower number for these starting valuations in the next ten or fifteen years hasn't really been something that's worked out long enough period here.

00:27:54: So then kind of shifting gears.

00:27:56: what are you excited about if markets are just kinda over?

00:28:00: Again I

00:28:03: don't think a crash is coming.

00:28:04: I think most public capital markets have essentially

00:28:14: borrowed

00:28:15: from future performance for the past two or three years.

00:28:19: I've

00:28:19: heard it said that way a few times, but what about private market?

00:28:22: So private markets are different.

00:28:23: so as you know in my personal portfolio i have more private assets than i do public assets

00:28:31: and all your money even at this

00:28:33: crazy spreadsheets.

00:28:35: By the way, you know

00:28:37: I love your spreadsheets for record

00:28:39: by like Claude likes them too.

00:28:40: Oh Claude

00:28:40: probably Obsesses over.

00:28:42: yes this cloud make it better and easier free or is it harder?

00:28:45: So if only because somebody has to be answered This question differently a month ago i've been spending A lot of time with claud Over The past few weeks.

00:28:52: okay

00:28:53: And It Is making it Better Because its able To automate so much Of what i was doing manually.

00:29:01: Maybe maybe at The sacrifice there is maybe slightly less accuracy, at least in the short term until I really teach it.

00:29:11: But to maintain manual spreadsheets like I have and look things up all of a time... And make errors also when you do that as natural.

00:29:19: so i think.

00:29:20: So what's the future of spreadsheets?

00:29:23: If its this easy What Is the Future Of Excel When Everybody That Sit There Doing That Manual Stuff Because Thats Part Of Thing That Made You Great?

00:29:30: Well you know, I'm not this believer that once upon a time we didn't have Excel.

00:29:38: Right?

00:29:39: So- The advocate stays...

00:29:41: But then someone who became proficient at Excel was very, very valuable.

00:29:45: today would even think of hiring someone who couldn't use Excel.

00:29:48: it's like It's A building

00:29:50: block!

00:29:50: I've made the mistake one time.

00:29:51: Don't make that mistake

00:29:53: again.

00:29:53: but here is thing in future You're Not going to hire Someone Who doesn't Know how To Use AI.

00:29:57: i'm just not a Believer That Ai Is Different Than Anything We'Ve Had since the industrial revolution.

00:30:03: Let me read a quote to you, uh-oh one of my pet peeves is how people think AI's going to replace everything.

00:30:09: it's been happening since The Industrial Revolution.

00:30:11: technology has always replaced People and people have moved on to bigger And better things and that's going To happen here too.

00:30:17: when did I say That

00:30:18: i don't remember exactly.

00:30:19: i could find the i've said On tv.

00:30:21: he said It on tb.

00:30:21: yeah i

00:30:23: do Think that's like look it might Happen faster Here.

00:30:26: it Might Displace More People in The Short Term but At every stage, by the way and you go back I've started to do this.

00:30:33: Haven't done a comprehensive study on this?

00:30:35: You go back.

00:30:36: at every stage where there was no new technology There were fears of it just disrupting.

00:30:42: And people what are we gonna?

00:30:43: Do they're not

00:30:43: wrong?

00:30:44: It's going to disrupt.

00:30:45: Of course then People get good with that thing in The New Things Happen.

00:30:48: If you ever watch This show The Marvelous Mrs.

00:30:50: Maisel Yeah great show Great show.

00:30:52: So one of her jobs is To connect long distance phone calls.

00:30:55: right AT&T had thirty thousand people doing That.

00:30:58: What are they doing now?

00:31:00: None of that.

00:31:00: Something

00:31:01: else though, what was the job of social media coordinator a job twenty-thirty years ago?

00:31:10: no it didn't exist.

00:31:11: need

00:31:11: things come about

00:31:12: and reality is we're very bad as humans at predicting future jobs.

00:31:18: there will be jobs for granted in thirty years And I

00:31:26: think that's exciting because it is opportunity for newer, younger generations to come off of some old things.

00:31:32: But i do want go all the way back real quick.

00:31:34: Sure You know we talked a lot about your philosophies but Some were deep rooted into high yield days and then you eventually made this shift to co-head fixed income.

00:31:44: I wanna talk about transition before going deeper in your philosophy Because there are lots.

00:31:50: How did that transition came out?

00:31:51: Got that job

00:31:54: because the person was running fixed income, who I've since introduced you to by the way.

00:31:58: He left for... You're a great referrer

00:32:00: right

00:32:01: now?

00:32:01: Okay!

00:32:04: For another opportunity and we had gone through a new CEO before.

00:32:10: there wasn't necessarily any great succession planning done so they weren't sure what to do.

00:32:15: So basically if we have about three hundred billion of assets in Fixed Income Basically iIwasrunningaboutathirdofit.

00:32:23: who came, my co-head Scott DiMaggio was running about a third of it.

00:32:27: And a third is Muniz and insurance and other stuff.

00:32:32: so they were like all right we'll put these two guys together.

00:32:36: how exactly?

00:32:37: It went down.

00:32:37: I'm not sure people will tell you Co heads never work.

00:32:41: i think We had the best relationship.

00:32:45: we started by doing The smartest thing we did to very smart things.

00:32:48: day one.

00:32:49: One Is We hired, well the person was internal already but we hire a COO for us so that we can both stay very involved in investing side and not have to get bogged down by lot of day-to-day things.

00:33:00: And second thing is...we hired career coach function as like marriage counselor for us To make sure best practice how could work together trust each other?

00:33:13: and were incredibly different.

00:33:16: If you ever interview him, you'd see right away.

00:33:17: We're incredibly different but we were complimentary and so there wasn't a lot of overlap.

00:33:22: naturally- You do this I'll do that!

00:33:24: We didn't fight over things.

00:33:25: Just

00:33:25: divide & conquer type thing?

00:33:26: Divide

00:33:26: & Conquer But also trusted each other And very quickly got to the point where knew when can speak for another.

00:33:32: Well

00:33:32: what's he good at?

00:33:33: tell me about it

00:33:34: He is... So i'm more just big picture.

00:33:38: we gotta move fast type thing.

00:33:41: He much more detail oriented Worries about the minutia.

00:33:46: Yeah

00:33:48: He's better with institutional clients.

00:33:50: I'm better with retail clients.

00:33:51: It just it's just complimentary in many, many ways.

00:33:54: now he and now is the sole head of fixed income.

00:33:56: yeah i gotta tell you You know?

00:33:59: I'm gonna be retiring from Alliance Bernstein at end-of-the year.

00:34:03: who knows what's next for me?

00:34:04: we'll talk About that.

00:34:05: but um I would not have wanted to job myself.

00:34:09: no No bye too much Too much stuff other than doing what I like to do, which is investing and talking declines.

00:34:17: Okay too Much you know.

00:34:18: running a department of almost two hundred people.

00:34:22: You're constantly just dealing with situations putting out

00:34:25: management your.

00:34:26: you have incredible leadership skills.

00:34:28: i am good but it's question Of?

00:34:31: What do i enjoy?

00:34:32: i enjoy managing A small team of People that I am very fortunate to have a team of people that are really talented.

00:34:39: So, um... I think a lot more talent than myself.

00:34:42: I look to hire people who're more talented in my self.

00:34:44: Um..I just- I didn't want to deal with the big bureaucracy A lot of head aches!

00:34:51: I was just tired of it and wanted go back managing money.

00:34:54: And thats what i've done for past three years.

00:34:56: It's been great, final three years To my career.

00:35:00: So whats next?

00:35:04: Once upon a time, you told me I should be CIO of my Don and then I told your crazy.

00:35:08: You

00:35:08: love managing money?

00:35:16: Yeah!

00:35:17: Well,

00:35:32: most people they retire and then go like six months.

00:35:34: They play a lot of golf.

00:35:35: No!

00:35:35: If they join a couple boards than usually it's either alcoholism deep depression or going back to work?

00:35:42: Look I have a lot hobbies... I'll

00:35:43: see you golfing.

00:35:44: ...no i'm not a big golfer.

00:35:48: We didn't even talk about poker yet but its really Backgammon is my first love.

00:35:50: maybe we will come through that.

00:35:52: I've played a lot at Backgamon.

00:35:53: ummm..I had ten year old son which I'd spend more time with.

00:35:57: three older girls Worked a lot of hours.

00:36:01: I wasn't always there, right, Shoshanna?

00:36:03: Yeah yeah but you still love me, right?

00:36:07: You still loved me?

00:36:08: She's

00:36:08: your favorite child.

00:36:09: Shh!

00:36:10: Can't say that on air... But yes.

00:36:14: Favorite one that i've hired.

00:36:15: so let me know.

00:36:16: I'll hire the rest if need to.

00:36:18: Oh we didn't even tell people.

00:36:20: Internships, internships not paying them all.

00:36:24: Okay

00:36:25: okay good

00:36:26: Unpaid ok they're your interns.

00:36:28: Well

00:36:28: lets get back.

00:36:29: I would be happy if i could fill twenty, twenty five thirty hours a week with something productive.

00:36:34: It doesn't have to be one thing.

00:36:35: it can be something.

00:36:36: in the non-profit world that could be something and In The Business World You're

00:36:41: young you've

00:36:42: got a lot

00:36:42: of years.

00:36:43: your youth are healthy And very bright.

00:36:45: What do what?

00:36:47: Would you Do in A Perfect World?

00:36:48: Blank Slate!

00:36:49: You know all the stuff you Know.

00:36:50: Today

00:36:52: I would do Something in One Of My Passions Be it Sports or Backgabbing Or Something Like That.

00:36:56: Okay But...I

00:36:59: think we were Talking about backgammon, there's a role inside of Backgammon.

00:37:04: you wanted?

00:37:05: There was.

00:37:05: The software that everyone uses to analyze their backgamman positions is called XG Extreme Gammon.

00:37:13: Extreme Gammen!

00:37:15: Great

00:37:16: name.

00:37:16: But it hasn't really been touched in fifteen years.

00:37:19: so one of the founders of Uber recently bought like a year ago and this has done with it first.

00:37:26: commercially makes no sense.

00:37:29: It's a one-time licensing fee of fifty nine dollars.

00:37:31: There are people who would pay fifty nine Dollars a month for it

00:37:34: or more,

00:37:35: but it hasn't been touching fifteen years should be integrated with AI to tell you what why?

00:37:40: What your doing is wrong.

00:37:42: there so many opportunities.

00:37:43: So they put out like They said he wanted the higher CEO and they sent an email With kind of job description And I hit on everything.

00:37:52: someone has been successful running a business as a quantitative background loves backgammon.

00:37:57: So look, I applied for it and apparently like five million other people applied for.

00:38:00: It was never called-

00:38:02: Never called?

00:38:04: Do they know you're the smartest person that applied?

00:38:06: They probably did not realize them

00:38:07: going to call

00:38:08: them or it's probably not The case.

00:38:10: okay That

00:38:11: much more likely.

00:38:12: but they hired someone else.

00:38:14: What is back at me For this?

00:38:16: back as what does his game that your so obsessed with

00:38:19: it Is?

00:38:20: um...it might be the oldest known boardgame.

00:38:23: its actually referenced in the Talmud a couple thousand years ago.

00:38:28: It's an old game, but it was made much better in the past century with the invention of what is known as The Doubling Cube... We don't have to go get that

00:38:37: in this.

00:38:37: What does that mean?

00:38:38: Doubling cube!

00:38:39: So you're allowed to raise the stakes ... You play through certain number match points and anytime you can double the stakes for one point at any time.

00:38:50: say I want two points.

00:38:52: your opponent then has two choices.

00:38:54: You can say, okay I accept it we're not paying for two points

00:38:57: or you

00:38:58: can say no i don't want to lose one...I'll give you concede one point to you.

00:39:03: once you've given the cube though only person who can make the next cube is the opponent.

00:39:09: now he has control of the cube.

00:39:11: so there's value in that if the game turns around then double the stakes further.

00:39:18: So a lot of math behind when your supposed And even the best players

00:39:24: and gambling is what I'm hearing.

00:39:25: Yes, math in gambling.

00:39:26: This literally makes sense now but

00:39:29: it's a. basically It's a game where each side has fifteen checkers.

00:39:32: They start at certain position their rules governing how you can move them.

00:39:35: that's based on dice.

00:39:36: The goal was to get all your checkers off before the other person

00:39:39: okay?

00:39:40: Who taught you how to play backgammon?

00:39:42: um I think so.

00:39:44: i played its At some friends houses But I remember going into library and taking out of book when I was like fourteen or fifteen to kind of read and study for it, but I took it up seriously about five or six years ago during the COVID period.

00:39:58: That recently

00:39:58: didn't realize?

00:39:59: Yeah

00:39:59: because what appeals to me about backgammon more than anything is you can get instantaneous feedback on how you play.

00:40:08: we talk about decisions and outcomes.

00:40:09: right i could win a match.

00:40:11: yes i could wind a match in play terribly or i could lose a match and play great.

00:40:15: the reality is if i played great if i learn how to play better i'm going to win more matches then lose.

00:40:20: So, yeah.

00:40:21: Every single move it can tell you the equity... every single move can calculate what your chances are of winning in a game or winning what's known as a gammon.

00:40:28: A gammon is when you take off all of your pieces before your opponent takes them up any then that doubles the points right there.

00:40:35: so every move could be analyzed and you really know how you're playing.

00:40:40: In back game?

00:40:41: What sets the best apart from like normal average players?

00:40:46: It's a combination of things.

00:40:49: Its pattern recognition, its understanding probability, it's discipline... ...it's understanding what type of game strategy you need to play.

00:40:59: based on how the dice have gone so far and like I actually just last week hit a level-I'm now officially an advanced one player The next level will be master which'll probably take me another year or two to get too.

00:41:14: but

00:41:14: What comes after that, how many higher?

00:41:16: So there's different.

00:41:17: I was advanced three then I was advance two and now I'm an advanced one.

00:41:20: Then there's master-three Master to master one than is grandmaster.

00:41:24: Yeah i don't think I have the natural innate ability.

00:41:27: it could be wrong But I don't Think I will ever get To a Grandmaster level.

00:41:30: I Don't think i have The patience in the discipline.

00:41:33: you will Have nothing else to do at six per months.

00:41:36: I spend A lot of time on this already trust me i have a professional coach Three three time lots of professional

00:41:42: coaches.

00:41:43: a three-time

00:41:43: world backgammon champion Frank Frigo.

00:41:46: Okay, awesome guy.

00:41:47: actually That's the guy you should interview.

00:41:49: he started an analytics business.

00:41:51: He consulted with many NFL teams is a backgamman champion.

00:41:54: I should introduce you to him.

00:41:55: I'd

00:41:55: love to meet them.

00:41:56: He's a great guy.

00:41:57: He's my he's my coach

00:41:58: okay?

00:41:58: I've had more than one coach over time.

00:42:00: But yeah, take back at me very seriously poker.

00:42:03: I don't take so seriously.

00:42:05: No no why I know I don't love the game of poker as much.

00:42:12: I viewed poker is a challenge, i grew up you know watching on ESPN Watching The Poker Boom, watching people compete for the most prestigious thing in poker which

00:42:23: IS a

00:42:24: World Series Of Poker bracelet!

00:42:26: You're winner

00:42:27: And I won one...I made a final table at main event In two thousand twenty and I won a tournament.

00:42:31: Two thousand twenty-one.

00:42:33: Yeah only about fifteen hundred People in the world have one of these.

00:42:39: You won two hundred and four thousand dollars?

00:42:42: Something like that,

00:42:43: And you donated all it to charity.

00:42:44: I did

00:42:45: okay now That's super interesting.

00:42:47: most people would not do that.

00:42:48: well here's how i viewed It.

00:42:50: I you know.

00:42:52: Thankfully we've been very blessed with financial means.

00:42:54: my wife and I and We give a lot of charity rate.

00:42:57: start With no.

00:42:58: you told me I gave too much charity.

00:43:00: No yes you did.

00:43:01: No, yes you did.

00:43:02: I can say what i said to you but...I don't know if he want me saying that here.

00:43:05: how much of this do they wanna be saying?

00:43:08: No!

00:43:09: What was like a decision later in life about whether we give more

00:43:12: away.

00:43:12: Correct correct I think You will able to give endless amounts.

00:43:14: it's choosing the right way.

00:43:16: Endless I dont know but endless.

00:43:17: But no so

00:43:19: another debate were not gonna get to hear.

00:43:21: So let me answer your question though.

00:43:26: We already gave a lot of charity away.

00:43:27: I Was going into poker Not thinking I was going to lose money.

00:43:31: Ninety-five percent of people lost money in poker, but look at his game and looked that it is okay?

00:43:36: I'm willing to spend twenty five thousand dollars a year on this or whatever the number is And i expect to lose that its entertainment value.

00:43:42: when

00:43:42: he's The first time you like started to play more professionally

00:43:45: Um...I played in a couple events In two thousand eighteen and nineteen.

00:43:50: But then I entered That main event that Was online during covid Which I made the final table Of which was live in vegas And the first year I came, played a bunch of events was two thousand twenty one and that's The Year I Won.

00:44:02: So I was like look, I think it would be great if do win money at this?

00:44:07: I don't need the money.

00:44:08: I'll give you the charity.

00:44:10: so became good story.

00:44:13: but what really motivated me to do is...I thinking its fun in life.

00:44:19: have stretch goals.

00:44:20: okay

00:44:21: let say i said..i want to be on PGA tour.

00:44:26: Well, guess what?

00:44:27: I could hit golf balls all day long.

00:44:30: It ain't gonna happen.

00:44:31: Twenty boys that play golf...I don't have the innate talent!

00:44:33: I want to be in the NBA.

00:44:35: if i played LeBron James one million times In a one-on-one he beats me all one million time.

00:44:41: I won't even win once.

00:44:42: No That's important because now I get to the poker table.

00:44:46: Am I as good as some of the great players Daniel Negrano Phil Hellmuth and others?

00:44:51: no not even close.

00:44:52: They're much better than me but they don't beat me hundred percent at the time right.

00:44:56: I can play with them.

00:44:56: There's enough short-term randomness that i can compete at the same table.

00:45:00: So winning this was very unlikely, but it was doable.

00:45:05: Yeah right being on a pga tour is not very unlikely It's impossible.

00:45:09: It's

00:45:09: probably the probability of me have The probability.

00:45:12: i've calculated given the number of tournaments i've entered Of me having won this as somewhere in one and a thousand.

00:45:20: Okay, range.

00:45:22: But it's doable!

00:45:23: Better than zero in a million?

00:45:24: Better than Zero In A Million.

00:45:26: I'll take those odds all day.

00:45:28: So It was something challenging.

00:45:29: look and backgammon to me its not.

00:45:32: you know i could...I'd like to..i'm preparing myself.

00:45:35: the world Backgammon Championship is in Monte Carlo every year coming up actually in July.

00:45:41: I plan on going next year.

00:45:42: Aviva very excited.

00:45:43: she wants go to Monte Carlo.

00:45:45: We were just on a little South of France trip, we figured maybe you can add some Monaco in and do that whole thing again.

00:45:51: It's amazing!

00:45:51: Have he been?

00:45:52: I have not been...I

00:45:53: should take your wife traveling more.

00:45:56: You've made it clear.

00:45:57: Thank-you First

00:45:58: class.

00:45:58: You're very good at spending my money Very good

00:46:05: at it.

00:46:05: Yes keep going.

00:46:06: So are gonna enter.

00:46:08: I would like to enter Like.

00:46:09: i'm good enough for the point now.

00:46:11: If I played best player in world and there is a known best player in the world.

00:46:18: If I played him in one point match, I probably win forty seven percent of time.

00:46:24: but you don't play one-point matches In big competition.

00:46:26: to play thirteen fifteen seventeen point matches i'd probably have against The Best Player in the World about thirty percent chance Of beating Him at this Point.

00:46:34: so Im gonna get better And I should Get To The Point Where I Have A Thirty Five Percent Chance.

00:46:42: Again, it's probability.

00:46:43: Am I likely to go the World Backgammon Championship where you have to win ten matches in a row?

00:46:47: Which even if there was a coin flip would be one and one thousand twenty-four or whatever.

00:46:51: that is right.

00:46:53: am i likely to win it?

00:46:54: very Very unlikely.

00:46:55: yeah but its not impossible.

00:46:57: Yeah about the same odds.

00:46:58: uh It sounds as this.

00:47:00: But again backgammon is something.

00:47:02: when we lose You always know what your playing

00:47:06: whether you played well Or Not which i think Is interesting.

00:47:08: because he talked About coaching A few times now.

00:47:11: Why do you get coaches?

00:47:12: What is coaching for, what has it done to

00:47:13: you?".

00:47:15: Oh.

00:47:15: Coaching...

00:47:16: For those people that are great don't- I mean outside of sports.

00:47:18: most people at a grade don't end up talking about getting coachers and getting coaches.

00:47:22: It's not common theme that

00:47:23: I've heard.

00:47:24: Look!

00:47:24: I mentioned i got coaching when I became co-edificiating because I got coaching other times in my career too.

00:47:29: I believe its part nature or nurture.

00:47:31: There're more natural leaders but they can always better.

00:47:36: Um..I think most CEOs have executive coaches.

00:47:39: At least they should.

00:47:41: You should probably have a coach.

00:47:43: I don't

00:47:43: you should.

00:47:44: I showed,

00:47:44: I can recommend you one.

00:47:45: I'd love

00:47:45: you to recommend me One.

00:47:47: just I wrote that down.

00:47:48: who is the best coach?

00:47:49: You've had coaches

00:47:50: are good.

00:47:51: Who was the best Coach?

00:47:53: I Don't know if the person want me to mention their name on they'll follow up with you afterwards.

00:47:57: Okay What did

00:47:58: that person do for you once?

00:47:59: um i mean If you've ever been to therapy it's years of it Years of yeah It's very much like that but under professional level

00:48:08: okay

00:48:09: trying to figure out what makes you tick, where are your blind spots?

00:48:12: How do you deal with

00:48:13: people?".

00:48:14: All kinds of assessment tests.

00:48:17: I've taken a lot of assessment test.

00:48:19: they're fascinating.

00:48:21: Aviva loves them.

00:48:22: when i said wow these things really...

00:48:24: They know you so well!

00:48:25: And they can pinpoint your weaknesses and you could talk about all right how do i deal with that?

00:48:28: How to deal the fact that uh-I get frustrated in this type situations.

00:48:33: How do I deal with conflict resolution when um..you Infinite amount of things you can always be getting better at?

00:48:42: coaching is Getting help from people that have experiences.

00:48:47: Is never a bad thing.

00:48:48: I mean look You have to have good coach.

00:48:49: Yeah, right like anything else?

00:48:51: You don't have

00:48:52: the areas of your I guess professional life That you were looking to get better

00:48:55: at.

00:48:57: well our industry has A habit of taking really good line performers.

00:49:02: where you're good portfolio manager Good analysts could insurance salesman and we put you in leadership positions or managing bunch of people.

00:49:09: Those are two completely different skill sets, not that some people can't do both.

00:49:14: But just because you were a good producer or a good portfolio manager and investor doesn't mean You Can Be A Good Manager Or A Good Leader Correct.

00:49:21: So

00:49:25: I think my investment training got much more informal from the people who have worked with me.

00:49:29: I've had a lot of good mentors over these years.

00:49:31: More informal...I never hired someone to teach me investing but the softer skills definitely.

00:49:36: i've gotten coaching and feedback.

00:49:38: I'm trying to get better and still need

00:49:43: it.

00:49:43: Do you recommend everybody getting a coach?

00:49:46: Anyone that has any aspirations of being in senior leadership position should have a coach, yes

00:49:52: How would they find good one?

00:49:54: what's the process?

00:49:55: deciding if their person is fit?

00:49:58: well those are two different questions.

00:50:00: finding someone i know less about.

00:50:02: just because my firm basically people we work with had choice for tour three interviewed them essentially, figure out what a good fit be.

00:50:14: Like like a lot of things in life that you get a feeling and it's working relationship You want someone with experiences had results?

00:50:19: Okay

00:50:20: And I have.

00:50:20: when i selected When we when Scott and I selected our coach he had worked With several other people the organization was very Very Good Results.

00:50:27: so We knew That.

00:50:29: but It's A personality thing do you guys Do you Guys mesh can you Be honest with each Other?

00:50:34: Sends a lot Of Interview Basic interview Stuff.

00:50:36: you Just Have to Find a Bunch of Them Ask a bunch of questions.

00:50:39: Yeah,

00:50:40: I would if you were considering consider one.

00:50:42: i'd probably interview three Of them

00:50:44: okay

00:50:45: and And figure out who?

00:50:46: You think he could work best with?

00:50:47: yeah Three seems like A reasonable number Like a reasonable minimum to interview before you.

00:50:51: i mean i interviewed ten therapists for i picked One.

00:50:54: i Usually interview Ten people For a job Before i pick one.

00:50:57: so you didn't even be

00:50:58: ten for your picture shana you just.

00:51:00: We made it three minutes on that phone call and i already knew what she was going To do and i knew exactly What i was gonna have her Do like Who She Was Gonna report to.

00:51:06: but i was very clear.

00:51:08: I'm biased.

00:51:09: I think she's awesome and she is awesome, but don't hire her because She's my daughter.

00:51:14: I know that.

00:51:15: so i told you want to be very clear?

00:51:17: I hired her cause she smarter than You definitely has way more personality

00:51:20: for sure.

00:51:21: yeah.

00:51:21: So it's a great bright future For Her.

00:51:23: I'm not worried about That one.

00:51:25: I work More About you in Retirement Than I do About her.

00:51:27: My Wife's Worrying about me in retirement.

00:51:28: I'm Not so Worried

00:51:30: really.

00:51:30: Don't Think you're Gonna Be able To only Fill twenty percent of your Time just don't

00:51:35: Twenty percent?

00:51:35: What do you

00:51:36: mean?

00:51:36: You said twenty, twenty-five hours a week.

00:51:37: So what are you going to do the rest of your

00:51:38: time?".

00:51:40: I got plenty of things... Do you know how much backgammon i play?

00:51:44: I have community things!

00:51:46: Whatever!!

00:51:48: I would work fulltime again if I found something that was passionate about.

00:51:52: Look..I'll be honest with ya like just The past few weeks I've really been digging into AI.

00:51:57: Yeah Both both.

00:51:59: I'm working on a project, my final project at my current employer as well.

00:52:03: It's just doing some personal stuff on it.

00:52:04: and wow!

00:52:06: Why would have had this for the past thirty years of my career?

00:52:08: Game changer.

00:52:09: Oh my god... It is like the best time to work.

00:52:13: So look what i don't want- I do not wanna work for large bureaucratic organization.

00:52:19: Not that I gotta say, my firm Alliance Bernstein Reload of Tothers.

00:52:23: what i know is less bureaucratic but there's still an element of bureaucracy.

00:52:28: Yeah it's

00:52:29: a larger organization.

00:52:31: It's just how things are going to be

00:52:33: although one of my favorite books of all time.

00:52:36: have you read Reed Hastings book?

00:52:38: No Rules Rules?

00:52:39: Found their.

00:52:40: oh you would love that book.

00:52:42: okay already done.

00:52:44: no rules rules.

00:52:45: its easy reading in couple hours by Reed Hastings basically how they succeeded at Netflix, not having rules.

00:52:54: but it was more than that.

00:52:55: It only wanted the best people.

00:52:57: if you were an average performer You got a nice severance package.

00:53:00: They wanted just the best and didn't have to police them.

00:53:03: There are no rules for expense accounts.

00:53:08: Sounds like my ideal world right there.

00:53:10: You would, I'm saying you would love this book.

00:53:12: Well we've talked about HR and how i hate all of these functions have having a great rule.

00:53:16: I'm surprised

00:53:16: that I didn't recommend this book to you in the past.

00:53:18: This is up your alley.

00:53:20: it sounds amazing.

00:53:21: That sounds...I mean It also speaks to Your leadership management style And I spent time with you asking questions just personally.

00:53:27: You know picking your brain because you are In a leadership position.

00:53:31: Um..and I think A lot Of this kind of like ties back To each other right?

00:53:33: Like what's our view of The world?

00:53:34: and I don't- I've never worked For somebody else.

00:53:38: I've never done it.

00:53:38: The last time I did, that was seventeen years

00:53:41: old.".

00:53:41: Oh

00:53:41: you work for your clients?

00:53:43: Correct Every client is your boss in some...

00:53:45: One hundred percent right every single client as my boss but they can fire me at any moment and encourage them to if i don't do a good job.

00:53:51: one of the things That I benefited from Is that so alliance Bernstein is majority owned by equitable mm-hmm.

00:53:59: You're familiar with yes

00:54:00: or insurance

00:54:01: more insurance company And we have.

00:54:05: We have a complicated relationship with equitable.

00:54:07: There are three things to us at once.

00:54:10: They're our parent, so in a sense they're our boss.

00:54:12: They also have client.

00:54:14: we manage a lot of their general account money and there's partner because they own so much of us that has similar interests growing ventures together And it creates not just conflict but complexity.

00:54:28: So I think i've benefited from.

00:54:31: having relationship is not clear cut The reality from a functional perspective of your boss?

00:54:38: No.

00:54:38: But if you don't kind-of treat them as your boss, that's the problem.

00:54:42: We are aligned entirely in this.

00:54:44: I mean our clients Are our Boss.

00:54:46: Our job is to work for them To make their lives better and If they're growing we're growing with them.

00:54:50: if They're not growing were probably Not going In The Right Direction right.

00:54:54: i'll take A lot Of blame if Clients Start to Make Lots of Bad Decisions.

00:54:56: That'S Probably on me.

00:54:57: i did a bad Job.

00:54:58: so i get that.

00:54:59: how do You keep Your Parents Slash Boss Slash Client Slash partner aligned?

00:55:04: How do you stay in the same, how did he manage that complexity and like stay aligned running at the same direction.

00:55:10: It's not always easy And there are conflicts.

00:55:13: There is no silver bullet to it.

00:55:14: I'm just saying i have a lot of experience trying uh To handle what I won't say its all solved.

00:55:18: Its naturally A complex relationship.

00:55:20: You wouldn't think was going be smooth because Of That.

00:55:23: And theres alot of different layers Right.

00:55:24: Lots of parts of The business touch other Parts Their Business.

00:55:28: So Theres No One size fits all.

00:55:30: It's just being aware of that and having to manage a dynamic over time like it.

00:55:36: You

00:55:37: know, I was you said the word parent.

00:55:39: so its kind got me thinking.

00:55:40: And there is good quote.

00:55:42: i found up yours Um...I liked this.

00:55:45: where get read your quotes back by the way When asked What do wish knew when first starting career life family?

00:55:55: Wish fully appreciated.

00:55:56: my kids literally watch every little thing they did.

00:55:59: It's so true, they say.

00:56:00: The best way to educate your kids is not through lecturing them it's from observing their actions.

00:56:06: I guess i didn't fully appreciate that.

00:56:08: also realize my parents were right about a lot of things the same thing same things at my kid.

00:56:13: think about uh...I'm wrong today.

00:56:15: some really write-about.

00:56:16: now

00:56:18: wise words.

00:56:20: no i think its um..it' s so true.

00:56:24: you can undo and tell all your kids how important it is to be kind to people, How you should look to help people.

00:56:32: You can preach for years and years.

00:56:35: all takes one time of them seeing your being mean someone or not living up those ideals And they'll just dismiss at all.

00:56:46: So yes if want kids to be charitable They have see you being charitable.

00:56:51: If u cant preach to them If you want your kid's to respect their elders You have to demonstrate that.

00:56:58: If you want your kids to treat you with respect, you can't be shouting at your father all the

00:57:03: time.".

00:57:03: No?

00:57:05: Actions speak

00:57:06: one of their words!

00:57:06: That's what I meant... Yeah it's the same but i think people don't realize just- Your kids are looking AT EVERYTHING.

00:57:13: Mine is like seven and a half months old.. I was putting that together and this looks interesting.

00:57:18: I wonder what dumb things I've already done my kid gonna figure out.

00:57:21: Probably safe in those early years.

00:57:24: When

00:57:24: did they start

00:57:24: matter?!

00:57:27: Yeah, when a kid can really understand and talk it start to matter at two already.

00:57:30: I mean It's

00:57:31: probably matters immediately.

00:57:33: I would say just because you're gonna take your while then You might not know exactly what it matters for them And when they're going to start picking up.

00:57:39: but it's probably the habits that we have to make ourselves.

00:57:41: yeah Okay everyone's ever.

00:57:43: you are very much of product so much Of what?

00:57:46: You believe is true religion right?

00:57:49: i mean yes people switch religions But the correlation between What you were taught When you were brought Up in what you Believe later In life Is Very High.

00:57:56: But it should be the same thing, a lot of things.

00:58:00: If you grew up... And there's been a lot studies on this.

00:58:02: if you grew in household where your mom and dad were constantly fighting and yelling at each other or God forbid even being abusive right?

00:58:11: You're much more likely to have that relationship with your spouse or significant another because that's what we use.

00:58:16: so I think that's normal when marriage.

00:58:18: Yeah So

00:58:20: would've caught yourself thinking maybe your parents are right about

00:58:27: Okay, my parents are deceased so that I can't think about it anymore.

00:58:30: Okay What do

00:58:33: you know?

00:58:34: You're asking the question.

00:58:34: It's just you know, you think you know everything as a kid and And you know whether its your parents knowing what's truly important in life, you know So many times kid makes of.

00:58:48: i'm going through something A little bit right now with My second daughter is getting married in six

00:58:53: months.

00:58:54: mazel tuff.

00:58:55: Very good Mazel Tov.

00:58:59: And you know, one of the things I don't care if she listens to this because i keep on telling her The focus on the minutiae Of the actual wedding drives me nuts.

00:59:09: It's just not that important.

00:59:11: what's important is?

00:59:12: The seventy years after the wedding.

00:59:15: yeah, I could tell You very little about my wedding.

00:59:18: it was nice My aunt always made a great and my parents make a great wedding.

00:59:22: it Was fun with all our friends and stuff but do think he'd you think it makes one, I don't have a difference in our life today.

00:59:28: Whether the color of the wedding was blue or yellow?

00:59:31: Or what would serve for dessert?

00:59:33: Any other minutiae at this point?

00:59:38: no!

00:59:40: My future son-in-law and my daughter moved to Israel.

00:59:42: they're both an Israeli army right now.

00:59:44: actually They'll be getting out of the Army And then their whole life ahead of them In that country.

00:59:47: they didn't grow up in Silly little details in the wedding.

00:59:53: So just an example that comes to mind, I as a kid focused on all kinds of stupid stuff.

00:59:59: my parents were right that I shouldn't have been focused on.

01:00:04: What about your kids?

01:00:05: What about the rest of you

01:00:06: guys?

01:00:07: What

01:00:07: advice would you give them?

01:00:08: Trishon is perfect we know Literally has no flaws.

01:00:13: You're making her head bigger.

01:00:14: Don't do it!

01:00:16: I still gotta get her to work later.

01:00:19: So what advice for the rest... Well

01:00:21: i will say I worry about my, so I have four kids.

01:00:24: So I've Shashan.

01:00:25: she's twenty-five of my daughter Tali.

01:00:27: She is twenty one who has gotten married young age.

01:00:30: My daughter Esther.

01:00:30: she just graduated high school and then i'm a ten year old son.

01:00:34: And I have to say that our kid probably only realized we had significant financial means when they moved to Florida.

01:00:43: They always knew were comfortable but lived the pretty low key life.

01:00:47: Until then it happened to buy very big house in Florida.

01:00:52: That's Scott DiMaggio term, my co-heads.

01:00:55: Quite an amazing house!

01:00:57: But despite that... My three girls are very well grounded.

01:01:03: They're not.

01:01:07: Aviva and Trashana will fight about this.

01:01:10: Aviva gets in an Uber everywhere And Trashano just take the train.

01:01:17: My daughter in Israel called me up a few months ago Something about her phone.

01:01:21: I don't know.

01:01:22: she something that She needed to get a replacement part or something?

01:01:27: Oh, is it not available in Israel?

01:01:29: should i buy?

01:01:29: if you hear and send to You she's like no i can Get here but just cost sixty dollars.

01:01:34: i'm Like Why are we talking About this?

01:01:38: But That's the kind.

01:01:38: so It's got A little bit overboard.

01:01:40: what i'm worried?

01:01:41: my son Has really only grown up.

01:01:43: he's Only gonna have known living In florida.

01:01:44: So i want My kids To Not Take This Stuff for Granted.

01:01:49: I want to be productive members of society, pay their own way and make their own living.

01:01:55: And those are important values as well.

01:01:57: We think

01:01:57: a lot about how you raise your kids' views on philanthropy in kind-of the world giving back or aligned.

01:02:03: You're trying to raise kids that have the same value set as you?

01:02:07: Yeah we've taken all our kids who sponsor these charity missions for high schoolers where they go into communities that have had disasters.

01:02:18: We've been to New Orleans, went to Houston and gone to Puerto Rico and get their hands dirty.

01:02:24: And I've gone on many of them.

01:02:26: I've taken my kids on them.

01:02:27: just see that it's really important.

01:02:30: in fact remember once the leader or group goes we're sitting there painting a house.

01:02:35: he goes.

01:02:36: uh everyone say Gershon paintin' the House here?

01:02:38: What do you think?

01:02:40: chances are he'd ever painted his own house right.

01:02:43: zero.

01:02:44: He would call someone to paint the house.

01:02:45: So why is he doing this?

01:02:47: I think it's important and that gets back to not just, you know lecturing And saying what you should do but getting your hands dirty as Is important and help.

01:02:57: look ii Do believe at those blessed with With more in life need To Need to roll up their sleeves and help In any way they can't.

01:03:06: Not everyone's going to be in a position where They Can give away A lot of money and That's fine.

01:03:10: Time is The most precious thing.

01:03:11: You have

01:03:14: Perfect spot for us.

01:03:15: I want to go off to a rapid fire section.

01:03:17: Oh, um That thing that was gonna mean incredible.

01:03:20: i think some of the things you said are incredible and i've known A lot about use.

01:03:23: we talk a lot.

01:03:24: so Now i'm going To start up with Some gersh specific rapid-fire And then We're Gonna Go back to my normal rapid-Fire.

01:03:29: Nobody's ever made it through them all.

01:03:30: let's see how You do?

01:03:32: Um you gotta pick one forever poke her back in Back

01:03:34: at.

01:03:35: who's hurt you more The jets or the rangers

01:03:37: Jets?

01:03:39: Which green room is better?

01:03:40: bloom burger cnbc

01:03:42: blueberg

01:03:44: Florida or Nashville?

01:03:51: I'm pardoned to no state income taxes.

01:03:53: That's the only thing that matters.

01:03:56: One of the big things, it matters All right.

01:03:58: fine.

01:03:59: best book you've read this year?

01:04:05: My joke is i can't read audio books.

01:04:07: I'll tell you The Best Book.

01:04:08: Another book You Should Read Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke.

01:04:13: Okay, Annie Duke.

01:04:16: So yeah I got two for you to read No Rules Rules by Reed Hastings and Thinking in Bets by that'll get your real philosophy okay?

01:04:27: It's gonna have something to do with gambling and probabilities i can just tell based on the title.

01:04:31: so I'm sure it will be enjoyable.

01:04:32: The

01:04:33: best...I've only read like Two Books this year both Just On Vacation and I Read Freedom McFadden books.

01:04:37: my kids make fun of

01:04:38: me.

01:04:39: Freedom Mcfadden

01:04:40: Yeah She is an author.

01:04:41: she writes thrillers.

01:04:45: Which one was your favorite so far this year?

01:04:48: I don't know.

01:04:49: How many of these do you read per year, like?

01:04:50: is it two or three?

01:04:51: Two out of the way.

01:04:51: Okay Well on vacation i'll read books

01:04:54: You actually take vacations and read on vacation?

01:04:56: Occasionally!

01:04:57: Can't even imagine you relaxing that much to read a book...I just can't..

01:05:00: I dont' read in one sitting.

01:05:01: That's crazy.

01:05:03: Alright what's best advice have ever received.

01:05:06: God gave me One mouth And two ears for reason Said To Me By The At the time, the CIO fixed income in a client meeting.

01:05:20: It's pretty good.

01:05:20: it was

01:05:20: great.

01:05:21: I bet your reaction is not.

01:05:22: uh Pretty one right ready?

01:05:25: Yeah But

01:05:26: he was good.

01:05:28: What's the worst advice you've ever received?

01:05:34: become a Jets fan.

01:05:34: i don't know Who the heck told you to become a jets fan that's.

01:05:40: Uh.

01:05:40: what's one thing you do every morning that sets your day up perfectly?

01:05:47: I Don't Know.

01:05:47: Is there One Thing I don't Know?

01:05:49: It's got to be something you do every day.

01:05:50: I mean,

01:05:50: brush my teeth?

01:05:51: Does that set my date perfectly?

01:05:52: Every day?

01:05:53: Good making sure phone call or text.

01:05:57: The first thing i did was reach for my phone and make sure nothing crazy happened overnight.

01:06:01: so someone doesn't need me right away.

01:06:02: That is the first thing in the morning before I brushed my teeth!

01:06:06: Thats your first thing to do on a Saturday.

01:06:08: Make sure kids are okay, no things burned down.

01:06:12: If they were not ok then it would

01:06:13: have texted me.

01:06:16: if never gone into your business what kind of business?

01:06:19: something in the sports world.

01:06:22: Okay, that could be cool I can imagine it.

01:06:25: An

01:06:26: analytical role with a team like

01:06:28: Moneyball type thing?

01:06:29: Yes!

01:06:31: Maybe that's their next career

01:06:33: In two thousand and three.

01:06:36: There was Ohio conference New York And they always got like you know keynote speaker from outside of your industry.

01:06:41: They had Herm Edwards who is coach for the Jets Yeah...and made them mistake.

01:06:45: sitting me next to him at lunch.

01:06:47: He actually gave his business card.

01:06:49: So this was during the off-season.

01:06:51: The upcoming season, I would email him every Monday morning with all of the mistakes that he made from more a game management clock management perspective.

01:07:00: Amazing!

01:07:01: He

01:07:01: used to respond until finally got tired and told me not to email anymore.

01:07:05: but...I actually wrote a letter to all thirty two NFL teams in two thousand one or two before he could do emails.

01:07:13: I got a response from a couple of them, basically explaining some of the analytics that are taken for granted today.

01:07:18: These advanced analytics...I had them all figured out.

01:07:20: twenty-twenty five years ago.

01:07:21: The guy wanted to introduce you Frank Frigo.

01:07:23: He actually made it business into and consulted with many NFL teams And the reason why NFL teams go forward much more in fourth down today than they ever did is due those kind of advance analytics.

01:07:32: So i could have done money ball thing.

01:07:34: yes

01:07:35: Okay, I think there's still hope between you

01:07:37: and AI.

01:07:38: There are still things that might be able to do.

01:07:40: Yeah!

01:07:40: AI can help me figure this out even faster.

01:07:42: i'm sure of it.

01:07:42: Hopefully You're gonna go back and claw your way into a moneyball job like the Jetson and they'll win the Super Bowl.

01:07:47: It will be amazing.

01:07:48: That'd be great.

01:07:48: we'll see low probability but We'll See.

01:07:51: I like it.

01:07:51: thank you Grish.

01:07:52: I appreciate you being on.

01:07:53: Thank-you Colt deep really pleasure Being here awesome.